As the Goth turns..

[Jeremy]

> Western culture itself is pretty much at an impasse and the decline of
> this music reflects it, We went through the periods of Romanticism,
> Modernism and Post-Modernism (all of which are reflected in various
> strains of the goth-industrial scene, as well) and came out the other side
> at Nakayama's "End of History". But it's not really the End of History,
> just the end of the West's history as it proceeds towards creative death.

The idea that interest in "ethic cultures" in music as you put it (as
if mainstream American is not an ethnicity) confirms that Western
culture has developed as far as it can is just some amateurish
ill-informed musicology. Half of the thrill of white America
discovering rock and roll in the 50s was that it was a visit from a
mysterious other culture, black American culture. And before that we
had the Cuban music craze in the US. And before that... well it goes
on and on. Look at the baroque and classical composers writing songs
with names like Hungarian Danse etc. Toying with the sounds and
fashions of foreign cultures is not a sign of the decline of western
civilization. It's a sign that things are pretty much as they've
always been.

Also, his name is Francis Fukuyama, not "Nakayama." If you're going to
cite a famous book at least learn the guy's first name before tell us
that you're the only one "speak authoritatively" on the topic.


On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 3:08 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry, but I have to disagree somewhat.
>
> First of all, most of the people commenting on here were not in the 80s
> scene because they were not old enough. Once again, as someone who grew up
> in high school and college during the 80s, as well as the person who
> presented the first national-act concert specifically promoted as 'gothic'
> (in 1988, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, and I hope you won't
> try to argue again), I think I can speak authoritatively here.
>
> Of course in the 80s there was nuclear angst, but that was dealt with in
> many ways. Some went dark and brooding, but just as many others went
> light-hearted and synthpoppy. I have plenty of
> records from both to tell the tale.
>
> The period in which this list was founded and which the people who are
> posting grew in was not the 80s, but the 90s 'neogoth' period. There was
> no nuclear angst because the Soviet Union had collapsed. If you remember,
> at first the scene was all about gothrock and ethereal (transitioning
> from the late 80s darkrock vibe), then it became all about industrial and
> finally about futurepop.
>
> Sure, the grunge and Lollapalooza effect was very important - the
> mainstreaming of alternative culture (and the Clinton-era prosperity which
> allowed everyone to spend so much money - remember that most of you are on
> the 2nd half of Gen-X, and during this period the purchasing power of that
> generation was realized) produced 'gateway bands' like NIN and Manson
> which fed into the underground the same way mainstreamed punkers like
> Green Day did.
>
> Also, there's one thing which you folks do not like to openly acknowledge
> and that is the influence of rave culture. With alternative culture going
> mainstream, rave was still one of the undergrounds
> misunderstood in the public eye (along with stuff like drum 'n bass, IDM
> and breakcore, which I believe are the last original musics that the West
> will ever produce) and I can guarantee you that some young teens who raved
> in mid-90s later became goths, and that is why by the second half of the
> 90s, the goth clubs were mostly actually sounding like pounding trancey
> techno raves. (futurepop and the like)
>
> So, in that late 90s period, alternative culture took one step further and
> not only became mainstream but totally commodified, like Brian noted.
> Which means that now, younger Gen-Y kids don't have to be creative at all
> - they have their subcultures (and the strictures of creativity within
> each) completely designed for them, in stores, in the media, and on the
> Internet. The only thing they can do is shatter these subcultures into
> ever more tiny subcultures, recombining and dissecting them in a
> postmodern cutup style. The steampunk/neo-cabaret movement is good
> evidence of that. As is the crazy patchwork of stuff on sites like
> Youtube.
>
> Western culture itself is pretty much at an impasse and the decline of
> this music reflects it, We went through the periods of Romanticism,
> Modernism and Post-Modernism (all of which are reflected in various
> strains of the goth-industrial scene, as well) and came out the other side
> at Nakayama's "End of History". But it's not really the End of History,
> just the end of the West's history as it proceeds towards creative death.
>
> Four civilizations (mainly: China, India, Islam, and Latin) will rise,
> hybridize with the West where appropriate, and battle for ascendancy with
> an outcome no one can reasonably predict. Right now the fringe of
> creativity lies in the combination and syncretization of cultures. You
> know how combinations of black music and European music basically created
> enduring and incredible American art forms from blues and jazz to country
> and rock and rap, etc?
> Well, in the future there will be many more developments across all these
> cultures (you're already
> seeing it with Desi, rai, Latin rock, etc) and that will be where the
> action and creativity is.
>
> The interest in ethnic cultures already seem to confirm this. People get
> excited about gypsy Balkan bands and Tuvan throat singers. People who
> would never see an avantgarde jazz show jump at the chance as soon as it's
> marketed from a standpoint of ethnicity (like incorporating Asian or
> African or Indian influences, etc). Goth chicks are becoming bellydancers,
> are they not?
>
> And yes, Brian was right about live music. It will rise in value once
> again as digital music loses it value and becomes disposable sounding and
> worthless. But the live experience will hopefully not just bring
> cookiecutter emo bands and adult folkpop to the fore - it will also
> hopefully bring these
> new and interesting hybrids to live audiences, so even as the world is
> getting smaller, more people can interconnect through shared live music
> experiences, etc. I look forward to that.
>
> Peace out!
>
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