THD - "evolution of our decay" album

[manny at garfieldartworks.com]

You were talking about a different band?

Then who the heck is "Empire" then?
I never did a show for a band called "Empire".

People who want to continue to believe that you are not making random shit
up to suit your
unfounded accusations about me can continue to do so.

-mt

> Well, I was talking about a different band anyway, but there's no
> point in continuing the conversation. People who want to believe that
> Manny can do no wrong will do so no matter what.
>
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 9:33 AM,  <jdecay at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  The Empire Hideous actually just called it quits this year (granted,
>> it's not the first time they've done that), which is a shame. That was
>> one quality act, one that deserved the fame that pop-Goth bands like
>> The Cruxshadows have.
>>
>> We actually booked Empire Hideous and Vampire Nation in York, PA on the
>> following night to a crowd of 60 - 80 people. Nobody mentioned any shady
>> dealings the prior night, and I don't believe Myke Hideous mentioned
>> anything in his autobiography (other than the utter state of filth of
>> Fred's place). I could be wrong about events (not having been at the
>> Pluto's show), but their booking agent also made sure that contracts
>> (including guarantee) were signed beforehand, too.
>>  -------------- Original message from manny at garfieldartworks.com:
>> --------------
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I had to think about this for a moment  (Empire?) and then I realized,
>>> you
>>> must be talking
>>> about The Empire Hideous, because I couldn't think of a band called
>>> Empire, and it would
>>> have to be something goth.
>>>
>>> I was at the Empire Hideous show (I believe it was at Pluto's), but I
>>> did
>>> not present it or promote it.
>>> If I recall correctly, the show was presented by Fred (Vampire Nation).
>>> Whatever arrangement he made (and you know he pulled some mighty
>>> fraudulent stunts) I was not involved in, and I have no idea what
>>> happened
>>> financially with that show. If Fred ripped them off that does suck but
>>> it
>>> is not related to me. I would not walk out of a show without paying the
>>> touring band, even if it was a door deal (which I am guessing it was
>>> not),
>>> if I had previously made an agreement of some sort (which I usually
>>> do).
>>> If it had been my show, I would have gone to the ATM and paid them. I
>>> have
>>> done that many times.
>>>
>>> If you can recall, there were several instances which Fred and I did
>>> collaborate (such as the Thanatos show at the Oakland Beehive, or at
>>> least
>>> one Lycia gig), where I had to back a loss because he mysteriously had
>>> no
>>> money to cover his end. But that was not one of those times.
>>> I was definitely not involved in the Empire show. And I long ago
>>> learned
>>> my lesson about Fred, anyway. As far as I know he's still in jail
>>> right?
>>>
>>> I'm not surprised that you don't have the correct information about
>>> something that happened over a decade ago, either. Maybe you should get
>>> your facts straight before you try and accuse me of anything based on
>>> hearsay or rumor. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. I, on
>>> the
>>> other hand, have a stack of contracts as tall as my head that I've
>>> fulfilled over the past 20 years.
>>>
>>> -mt
>>>
>>> > Tell us what happened with Empire. Did you bring them into town and
>>> > then not pay them, leaving them without money to even get home?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM,   wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the
>>> track
>>> >> record during the period
>>> >> that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.
>>> >>
>>> >> Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them
>>> >> exactly
>>> >> what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without
>>> careful
>>> >> renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't
>>> enough
>>> >> red
>>> >> wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
>>> >> involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually
>>> >> agreed
>>> >> on.
>>> >>
>>> >> You're really good at making claims that never happened.
>>> >> This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.
>>> >>
>>> >> You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND -
>>> >> *underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that
>>> while
>>> >> I
>>> >> paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
>>> >> promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you
>>> thought
>>> >> you
>>> >> 'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between
>>> me
>>> >> and your band
>>> >> as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other
>>> words,
>>> >> you
>>> >> were paid that night
>>> >> what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you
>>> got
>>> >> paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also
>>> you
>>> >> might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE
>>> the
>>> >> next time.
>>> >>
>>> >> Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that
>>> a
>>> >> member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a
>>> couple
>>> >> times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT
>>> THOSE
>>> >> SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim
>>> you've
>>> >> made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so
>>> don't
>>> >> try
>>> >> to backpedal on that).
>>> >>
>>> >> If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I
>>> do
>>> >> not
>>> >> know to be true, am I?
>>> >> Then you should do the same.
>>> >>
>>> >>> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
>>> >>> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago
>>> are
>>> >>> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy
>>> or
>>> >>> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
>>> >>> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away
>>> with a
>>> >>> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams,
>>> and
>>> >>> keep promoting shows.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All
>>> it
>>> >>> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John  wrote:
>>> >>>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm
>>> guessing
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> it
>>> >>>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
>>> >>>> music
>>> >>>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on
>>> it in
>>> >>>> case
>>> >>>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
>>> >>>> playing
>>> >>>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've
>>> noticed
>>> >>>> one
>>> >>>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many,
>>> many
>>> >>>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to
>>> respond
>>> >>>> to a
>>> >>>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many
>>> >>>> years
>>> >>>> ago.
>>> >>>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or
>>> there
>>> >>>> at a
>>> >>>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about
>>> the
>>> >>>> shows I
>>> >>>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me
>>> realize
>>> >>>> that I
>>> >>>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show
>>> >>>> together
>>> >>>> or
>>> >>>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his
>>> shows
>>> >>>> that
>>> >>>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in
>>> >>>> Pittsburgh
>>> >>>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play
>>> here
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to
>>> shows.
>>> >>>> I
>>> >>>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based
>>> on
>>> >>>> the
>>> >>>> work
>>> >>>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years.
>>> >>>> Sure,
>>> >>>> he
>>> >>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who
>>> hasn't. I
>>> >>>> just
>>> >>>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for
>>> a
>>> >>>> few
>>> >>>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>>> >>>> music
>>> >>>> in
>>> >>>> Pittsburgh.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> John
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Jeremy wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody.
>>> That
>>> >>>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted
>>> was
>>> >>>>> a total fluke too.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,   wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the
>>> cops
>>> >>>>>>> if
>>> >>>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good
>>> for
>>> >>>>>>> them. Good story.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole
>>> staff, or
>>> >>>>>> even
>>> >>>>>> remotely most of it)
>>> >>>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to
>>> >>>>>> collude,
>>> >>>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
>>> >>>>>> convince
>>> >>>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station,
>>> as
>>> >>>>>> well
>>> >>>>>> as
>>> >>>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they
>>> wouldn't
>>> >>>>>> have
>>> >>>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on
>>> my
>>> >>>>>> side
>>> >>>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of
>>> my
>>> >>>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned,
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> what
>>> >>>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had
>>> >>>>>> served
>>> >>>>>> in
>>> >>>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
>>> >>>>>> faithfully
>>> >>>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to
>>> make
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the
>>> office I
>>> >>>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them
>>> out.
>>> >>>>>> Not
>>> >>>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other
>>> words.
>>> >>>>>> At
>>> >>>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to
>>> do
>>> >>>>>> their
>>> >>>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to
>>> print
>>> >>>>>> up
>>> >>>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned,
>>> of
>>> >>>>>> course.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take
>>> calls
>>> >>>>>> from
>>> >>>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
>>> >>>>>> message
>>> >>>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I
>>> made
>>> >>>>>> calls
>>> >>>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar
>>> listings.
>>> >>>>>> Some
>>> >>>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't
>>> there,
>>> >>>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who
>>> concocted
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for
>>> me,
>>> >>>>>> as
>>> >>>>>> if
>>> >>>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here').
>>> But
>>> >>>>>> how
>>> >>>>>> is
>>> >>>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for
>>> >>>>>> someone
>>> >>>>>> who
>>> >>>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the
>>> time?
>>> >>>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones.
>>> >>>>>> Station
>>> >>>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
>>> >>>>>> import/indie
>>> >>>>>> experimental/industrial
>>> >>>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the
>>> station
>>> >>>>>> never
>>> >>>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
>>> >>>>>> Instead,
>>> >>>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which
>>> they
>>> >>>>>> would
>>> >>>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them
>>> with
>>> >>>>>> me
>>> >>>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
>>> >>>>>> experimental,
>>> >>>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the
>>> >>>>>> station.
>>> >>>>>> The
>>> >>>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part
>>> of
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> five
>>> >>>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked
>>> >>>>>> quite
>>> >>>>>> well
>>> >>>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers
>>> while
>>> >>>>>> also
>>> >>>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was
>>> being
>>> >>>>>> hurt
>>> >>>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
>>> >>>>>> anyway)
>>> >>>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
>>> >>>>>> Rasputina
>>> >>>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
>>> >>>>>> taking
>>> >>>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask,
>>> why
>>> >>>>>> would
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?)
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
>>> >>>>>> supposed
>>> >>>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred -
>>> >>>>>> merely
>>> >>>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums.
>>> All
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven.
>>> No
>>> >>>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any
>>> proof
>>> >>>>>> or
>>> >>>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than
>>> a
>>> >>>>>> kangaroo one.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement
>>> carts
>>> >>>>>> (not
>>> >>>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
>>> >>>>>> impetus
>>> >>>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In
>>> other
>>> >>>>>> words,
>>> >>>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
>>> >>>>>> position
>>> >>>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total
>>> lack
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying
>>> to
>>> >>>>>> give
>>> >>>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the
>>> >>>>>> music
>>> >>>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed
>>> >>>>>> from
>>> >>>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two
>>> >>>>>> people
>>> >>>>>> who
>>> >>>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
>>> >>>>>> instance
>>> >>>>>> that could be brought up
>>> >>>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one
>>> >>>>>> time,
>>> >>>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their
>>> neck'. I
>>> >>>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I
>>> possibly
>>> >>>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I
>>> >>>>>> could
>>> >>>>>> have
>>> >>>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your
>>> neck')
>>> >>>>>> but
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
>>> >>>>>> instances
>>> >>>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
>>> >>>>>> instance
>>> >>>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so
>>> happened to
>>> >>>>>> be
>>> >>>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>>> >>>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared
>>> >>>>>> about
>>> >>>>>> our
>>> >>>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
>>> >>>>>> nothing
>>> >>>>>> do
>>> >>>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
>>> >>>>>> example.
>>> >>>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my
>>> show
>>> >>>>>> by
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> program director.
>>> >>>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been
>>> warned
>>> >>>>>> about
>>> >>>>>> it before, and that was
>>> >>>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have
>>> been
>>> >>>>>> perfectly willing to accept
>>> >>>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
>>> >>>>>> certainly
>>> >>>>>> not grounds for
>>> >>>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other
>>> >>>>>> useful
>>> >>>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the
>>> station
>>> >>>>>> staff
>>> >>>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>>> >>>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening
>>> >>>>>> people,
>>> >>>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at
>>> the
>>> >>>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like
>>> a
>>> >>>>>> way
>>> >>>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>>> >>>>>> accusation
>>> >>>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
>>> >>>>>> semester.
>>> >>>>>> And that's it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>>> >>>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned
>>> from
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> station.
>>> >>>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people
>>> as
>>> >>>>>> well
>>> >>>>>> for
>>> >>>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either
>>> actually
>>> >>>>>> done
>>> >>>>>> or
>>> >>>>>> was falsely accused of.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
>>> >>>>>> station
>>> >>>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
>>> >>>>>> threats.
>>> >>>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition
>>> amongst
>>> >>>>>> WRCT
>>> >>>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
>>> >>>>>> following
>>> >>>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification
>>> for
>>> >>>>>> banning
>>> >>>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid
>>> that
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked
>>> like,
>>> >>>>>> nor
>>> >>>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that
>>> part
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> it
>>> >>>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that
>>> particular
>>> >>>>>> incident and nothing more.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before
>>> the
>>> >>>>>> ban,
>>> >>>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time.
>>> I
>>> >>>>>> had
>>> >>>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had
>>> been
>>> >>>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But
>>> I
>>> >>>>>> wasn't
>>> >>>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over
>>> that
>>> >>>>>> time,
>>> >>>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly
>>> the
>>> >>>>>> two
>>> >>>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>>> >>>>>> at that exact particular time.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the
>>> station,
>>> >>>>>> or
>>> >>>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned,
>>> say,
>>> >>>>>> two
>>> >>>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer
>>> have
>>> >>>>>> been
>>> >>>>>> in
>>> >>>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
>>> >>>>>> involved
>>> >>>>>> at
>>> >>>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate
>>> me
>>> >>>>>> having
>>> >>>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
>>> >>>>>> banned,
>>> >>>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power
>>> >>>>>> grab).
>>> >>>>>> Then
>>> >>>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original
>>> plotter)
>>> >>>>>> left
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> station and never was heard from since.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular
>>> time,
>>> >>>>>> but
>>> >>>>>> there was no way of knowing
>>> >>>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
>>> >>>>>> warning
>>> >>>>>> and without recourse.
>>> >>>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place
>>> at
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>>> >>>>>> with the wrong people.
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
>>> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> >>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
>>> >>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>>> >>>>
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>>> >>>
>>> >>
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