THD - "evolution of our decay" album

[jdecay at att.net]

 The Empire Hideous actually just called it quits this year (granted, it's not the first time they've done that), which is a shame. That was one quality act, one that deserved the fame that pop-Goth bands like The Cruxshadows have.

We actually booked Empire Hideous and Vampire Nation in York, PA on the following night to a crowd of 60 - 80 people. Nobody mentioned any shady dealings the prior night, and I don't believe Myke Hideous mentioned anything in his autobiography (other than the utter state of filth of Fred's place). I could be wrong about events (not having been at the Pluto's show), but their booking agent also made sure that contracts (including guarantee) were signed beforehand, too.
 -------------- Original message from manny at garfieldartworks.com: --------------


> 
> I had to think about this for a moment  (Empire?) and then I realized, you
> must be talking
> about The Empire Hideous, because I couldn't think of a band called
> Empire, and it would
> have to be something goth.
> 
> I was at the Empire Hideous show (I believe it was at Pluto's), but I did
> not present it or promote it.
> If I recall correctly, the show was presented by Fred (Vampire Nation).
> Whatever arrangement he made (and you know he pulled some mighty
> fraudulent stunts) I was not involved in, and I have no idea what happened
> financially with that show. If Fred ripped them off that does suck but it
> is not related to me. I would not walk out of a show without paying the
> touring band, even if it was a door deal (which I am guessing it was not),
> if I had previously made an agreement of some sort (which I usually do).
> If it had been my show, I would have gone to the ATM and paid them. I have
> done that many times.
> 
> If you can recall, there were several instances which Fred and I did
> collaborate (such as the Thanatos show at the Oakland Beehive, or at least
> one Lycia gig), where I had to back a loss because he mysteriously had no
> money to cover his end. But that was not one of those times.
> I was definitely not involved in the Empire show. And I long ago learned
> my lesson about Fred, anyway. As far as I know he's still in jail right?
> 
> I'm not surprised that you don't have the correct information about
> something that happened over a decade ago, either. Maybe you should get
> your facts straight before you try and accuse me of anything based on
> hearsay or rumor. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. I, on the
> other hand, have a stack of contracts as tall as my head that I've
> fulfilled over the past 20 years.
> 
> -mt
> 
> > Tell us what happened with Empire. Did you bring them into town and
> > then not pay them, leaving them without money to even get home?
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM,   wrote:
> >>
> >> Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the track
> >> record during the period
> >> that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.
> >>
> >> Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them
> >> exactly
> >> what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without careful
> >> renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't enough
> >> red
> >> wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
> >> involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually
> >> agreed
> >> on.
> >>
> >> You're really good at making claims that never happened.
> >> This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.
> >>
> >> You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND -
> >> *underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that while
> >> I
> >> paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
> >> promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you thought
> >> you
> >> 'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between me
> >> and your band
> >> as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other words,
> >> you
> >> were paid that night
> >> what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you got
> >> paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also you
> >> might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE the
> >> next time.
> >>
> >> Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that a
> >> member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a couple
> >> times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT THOSE
> >> SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.
> >>
> >> Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim you've
> >> made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so don't
> >> try
> >> to backpedal on that).
> >>
> >> If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I do
> >> not
> >> know to be true, am I?
> >> Then you should do the same.
> >>
> >>> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
> >>> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
> >>> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
> >>> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
> >>> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
> >>> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
> >>> keep promoting shows.
> >>>
> >>> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
> >>> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John  wrote:
> >>>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing
> >>>> and
> >>>> it
> >>>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
> >>>> music
> >>>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in
> >>>> case
> >>>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
> >>>> playing
> >>>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed
> >>>> one
> >>>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
> >>>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond
> >>>> to a
> >>>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many
> >>>> years
> >>>> ago.
> >>>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there
> >>>> at a
> >>>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the
> >>>> shows I
> >>>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize
> >>>> that I
> >>>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show
> >>>> together
> >>>> or
> >>>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows
> >>>> that
> >>>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in
> >>>> Pittsburgh
> >>>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here
> >>>> and
> >>>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows.
> >>>> I
> >>>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on
> >>>> the
> >>>> work
> >>>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years.
> >>>> Sure,
> >>>> he
> >>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
> >>>> just
> >>>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a
> >>>> few
> >>>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
> >>>> music
> >>>> in
> >>>> Pittsburgh.
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>> Jeremy wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
> >>>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
> >>>>> a total fluke too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,   wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops
> >>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
> >>>>>>> them. Good story.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or
> >>>>>> even
> >>>>>> remotely most of it)
> >>>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to
> >>>>>> collude,
> >>>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
> >>>>>> convince
> >>>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as
> >>>>>> well
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my
> >>>>>> side
> >>>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
> >>>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and
> >>>>>> what
> >>>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had
> >>>>>> served
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
> >>>>>> faithfully
> >>>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
> >>>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out.
> >>>>>> Not
> >>>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words.
> >>>>>> At
> >>>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do
> >>>>>> their
> >>>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print
> >>>>>> up
> >>>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
> >>>>>> course.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
> >>>>>> message
> >>>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made
> >>>>>> calls
> >>>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings.
> >>>>>> Some
> >>>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
> >>>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me,
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>> if
> >>>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But
> >>>>>> how
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for
> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
> >>>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones.
> >>>>>> Station
> >>>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
> >>>>>> import/indie
> >>>>>> experimental/industrial
> >>>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station
> >>>>>> never
> >>>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
> >>>>>> Instead,
> >>>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they
> >>>>>> would
> >>>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with
> >>>>>> me
> >>>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
> >>>>>> experimental,
> >>>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the
> >>>>>> station.
> >>>>>> The
> >>>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> five
> >>>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked
> >>>>>> quite
> >>>>>> well
> >>>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while
> >>>>>> also
> >>>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being
> >>>>>> hurt
> >>>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
> >>>>>> anyway)
> >>>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
> >>>>>> Rasputina
> >>>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
> >>>>>> taking
> >>>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why
> >>>>>> would
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
> >>>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
> >>>>>> supposed
> >>>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred -
> >>>>>> merely
> >>>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
> >>>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
> >>>>>> kangaroo one.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts
> >>>>>> (not
> >>>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
> >>>>>> impetus
> >>>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
> >>>>>> words,
> >>>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
> >>>>>> position
> >>>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to
> >>>>>> give
> >>>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the
> >>>>>> music
> >>>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
> >>>>>> instance
> >>>>>> that could be brought up
> >>>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one
> >>>>>> time,
> >>>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
> >>>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
> >>>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I
> >>>>>> could
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck')
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
> >>>>>> instances
> >>>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
> >>>>>> instance
> >>>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
> >>>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>> our
> >>>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
> >>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>> do
> >>>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
> >>>>>> example.
> >>>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show
> >>>>>> by
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> program director.
> >>>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>> it before, and that was
> >>>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
> >>>>>> perfectly willing to accept
> >>>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
> >>>>>> certainly
> >>>>>> not grounds for
> >>>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other
> >>>>>> useful
> >>>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
> >>>>>> staff
> >>>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
> >>>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening
> >>>>>> people,
> >>>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
> >>>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a
> >>>>>> way
> >>>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
> >>>>>> accusation
> >>>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
> >>>>>> semester.
> >>>>>> And that's it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
> >>>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> station.
> >>>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as
> >>>>>> well
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually
> >>>>>> done
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> was falsely accused of.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
> >>>>>> station
> >>>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
> >>>>>> threats.
> >>>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst
> >>>>>> WRCT
> >>>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
> >>>>>> following
> >>>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
> >>>>>> banning
> >>>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like,
> >>>>>> nor
> >>>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
> >>>>>> incident and nothing more.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the
> >>>>>> ban,
> >>>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I
> >>>>>> had
> >>>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
> >>>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I
> >>>>>> wasn't
> >>>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
> >>>>>> time,
> >>>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the
> >>>>>> two
> >>>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
> >>>>>> at that exact particular time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station,
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say,
> >>>>>> two
> >>>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have
> >>>>>> been
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
> >>>>>> involved
> >>>>>> at
> >>>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
> >>>>>> having
> >>>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
> >>>>>> banned,
> >>>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power
> >>>>>> grab).
> >>>>>> Then
> >>>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter)
> >>>>>> left
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> station and never was heard from since.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> there was no way of knowing
> >>>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
> >>>>>> warning
> >>>>>> and without recourse.
> >>>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
> >>>>>> with the wrong people.
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> >>>>>> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> >>>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>
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