THD - "evolution of our decay" album

[manny at garfieldartworks.com]

I had to think about this for a moment  (Empire?) and then I realized, you
must be talking
about The Empire Hideous, because I couldn't think of a band called
Empire, and it would
have to be something goth.

I was at the Empire Hideous show (I believe it was at Pluto's), but I did
not present it or promote it.
If I recall correctly, the show was presented by Fred (Vampire Nation).
Whatever arrangement he made (and you know he pulled some mighty
fraudulent stunts) I was not involved in, and I have no idea what happened
financially with that show. If Fred ripped them off that does suck but it
is not related to me. I would not walk out of a show without paying the
touring band, even if it was a door deal (which I am guessing it was not),
if I had previously made an agreement of some sort (which I usually do).
If it had been my show, I would have gone to the ATM and paid them. I have
done that many times.

If you can recall, there were several instances which Fred and I did
collaborate (such as the Thanatos show at the Oakland Beehive, or at least
one Lycia gig), where I had to back a loss because he mysteriously had no
money to cover his end. But that was not one of those times.
I was definitely not involved in the Empire show. And I long ago learned
my lesson about Fred, anyway. As far as I know he's still in jail right?

I'm not surprised that you don't have the correct information about
something that happened over a decade ago, either. Maybe you should get
your facts straight before you try and accuse me of anything based on
hearsay or rumor. Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. I, on the
other hand, have a stack of contracts as tall as my head that I've
fulfilled over the past 20 years.

-mt

> Tell us what happened with Empire. Did you bring them into town and
> then not pay them, leaving them without money to even get home?
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> Of course, endurance doesn't all by itself prove worth. It's the track
>> record during the period
>> that does. And I don't think you know my track record at all.
>>
>> Jeremy, name ONE BAND that I 'jerked around' (i.e. didn't pay them
>> exactly
>> what was promised in a contract, or shortchanged them without careful
>> renegotation). Not some pussy band who didn't feel they didn't enough
>> red
>> wine in their rider or something. I'm talking about a real complaint
>> involving money promised that wasn't delivered after being mutually
>> agreed
>> on.
>>
>> You're really good at making claims that never happened.
>> This is exactly what I talked about regarding making rumors.
>>
>> You're pissed solely for the fact that your band - a LOCAL BAND -
>> *underdrew* as an opener at one show you played for me - and that while
>> I
>> paid the national act that headlined the show the guarantee that I
>> promised them (as contracted), I paid your band less than you thought
>> you
>> 'deserved', when in advance, there was NO SPECIFIC AGREEMENT between me
>> and your band
>> as to what your band what supposed to get that night. In other words,
>> you
>> were paid that night
>> what a SMALL UNDERDRAWING LOCAL BAND was worth, and you're lucky you got
>> paid something at all with the underattendance that show had. Also you
>> might recall that the same headliner came back, and drew EVEN WORSE the
>> next time.
>>
>> Your claim gets even more nonsensical when I bring up the fact that a
>> member of your band, when he played solo for me as an opener a couple
>> times, did in fact get paid decently because THERE WAS A CROWD AT THOSE
>> SHOWS. Maybe you should ask him about it.
>>
>> Can you bring up anything to back up the broadly libelous claim you've
>> made below with regards to me? (And you did make it about me, so don't
>> try
>> to backpedal on that).
>>
>> If not, then retract it. I am not saying anything about you that I do
>> not
>> know to be true, am I?
>> Then you should do the same.
>>
>>> When you're a small time independent music promoter, the
>>> accountability is light. The bands you ripped off three years ago are
>>> forgotten, and the new bands have no way to verify the legitimacy or
>>> dependability of the various promoters across the country except by
>>> hearsay, which fades with time. So a single person can get away with a
>>> whole lot of crap over the years, and keep playing the same scams, and
>>> keep promoting shows.
>>>
>>> Endurance in this field does not prove one's quality or worth. All it
>>> proves is that the promoter hasn't quit yet.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 4:26 PM, John <anhedonia77 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> I've been subscribed to this list for close to 10 years I'm guessing
>>>> and
>>>> it
>>>> never seems to change. While I don't really listen to a lot of the
>>>> music
>>>> people subscribed to the list listen to anymore, I still stay on it in
>>>> case
>>>> there is an actual decent conversation or there is news of a band
>>>> playing
>>>> Pittsburgh that I wouldn't mind seeing. Over the years I've noticed
>>>> one
>>>> thing that is consistent on the list, Manny has been flamed many, many
>>>> times. It almost seems like some readers can't wait for him to respond
>>>> to a
>>>> message so they can bring up some shit that happened however many
>>>> years
>>>> ago.
>>>> I don't know Manny on a personal level, only meeting him here or there
>>>> at a
>>>> show he is involved with. This discussion got me thinking about the
>>>> shows I
>>>> have gone to that Manny has been involved with and it made me realize
>>>> that I
>>>> have seen a ton of killer bands solely because he put the show
>>>> together
>>>> or
>>>> brought the bands to Pittsburgh. I've been to a number of his shows
>>>> that
>>>> should have pulled decent crowds but didn't because people in
>>>> Pittsburgh
>>>> would rather sit at home and bitch that no good bands ever play here
>>>> and
>>>> that the Pittsburgh music scene sucks rather than going out to shows.
>>>> I
>>>> really think the guy deserves more credit than he is given based on
>>>> the
>>>> work
>>>> he has done for the Pittsburgh music scene in the past 20+ years.
>>>> Sure,
>>>> he
>>>> may have done some questionable things in the past, but who hasn't. I
>>>> just
>>>> can't seem to understand why people would want to attack a guy for a
>>>> few
>>>> things he's done wrong, when he really has done a lot of good for
>>>> music
>>>> in
>>>> Pittsburgh.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> Jeremy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You're right. It's completely unlike you to threaten anybody. That
>>>>> time when you pulled a knife on a kid at at show you had promoted was
>>>>> a total fluke too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:49 PM,  <manny at garfieldartworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, so they kicked you out and instructed new DJs to call the cops
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> anyone sees you near the station because you were just too good for
>>>>>>> them. Good story.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They kicked me out because two people there (not the whole staff, or
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> remotely most of it)
>>>>>> were offended by aspects of my personality & action enough to
>>>>>> collude,
>>>>>> cobble together some real and/or imagined peccadilloes, and then
>>>>>> convince
>>>>>> three other people to back them. If what I did for the station, as
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> for the scene at large, was really taken into account, they wouldn't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> had a shot at doing so - most of the station staff was either on my
>>>>>> side
>>>>>> (I got 15 signatures from station staff within a couple days of my
>>>>>> banning) or didn't care one way or the other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's review a bit of what I was doing at the time I was banned, and
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> I was supposedly accused of:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) I was both PSA director and concert calendar director. I had
>>>>>> served
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> both of those volunteer positions for at least two years and
>>>>>> faithfully
>>>>>> executed my function week in and week out. I used the office to make
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> calendars and PSA cards etc. And in the course of using the office I
>>>>>> designed some show flyers on their computer and printed them out.
>>>>>> Not
>>>>>> copies, just originals. A couple of sheets per week, in other words.
>>>>>> At
>>>>>> the time, others at the station were using the same computer to do
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> *homework*, generating dozens of sheets per week, and also to print
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> other show flyers for their own shows. None of them were banned, of
>>>>>> course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Also, it was accused that I was using the station to take calls
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> people. That was patently untrue. I had a home phone and I had a
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> machine there, so i was not using the station as an office. I made
>>>>>> calls
>>>>>> to venues and others during the course of making calendar listings.
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> people from venues may have called the station while I wasn't there,
>>>>>> asking to speak to me. (In fact, one of the two people who concocted
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ban plot claimed to have received a handful of calls asking for me,
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> it was such a big deal just to tell someone 'he's not here'). But
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> that different from anyone calling the station and asking for
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> works at the station, but doesn' t happen to be there at the time?
>>>>>> Remember, this was in an area before everyone had cellphones.
>>>>>> Station
>>>>>> staffers used the phone all the time to call out from it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) I had provided the station with hundreds of hard-to-find
>>>>>> import/indie
>>>>>> experimental/industrial
>>>>>> albums and CD at rockbottom wholesale prices, for which the station
>>>>>> never
>>>>>> even had to spend a dime for out of their Student Senate budget.
>>>>>> Instead,
>>>>>> the station paid for them by trading in unwanted promos, which they
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> have taken to Paul's or Dave's anyway if they didn't trade them with
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> for cool albums. If you go to WRCT's library and look under
>>>>>> experimental,
>>>>>> you'll still find those releases there that I provided to the
>>>>>> station.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> music director, with whom i had no issues and who was not part of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> five
>>>>>> people who banned me, had an understanding with me which worked
>>>>>> quite
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> as it enabled me to order records for myself from wholesalers while
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> supplying them to the station at wholesale rates. Nobody was being
>>>>>> hurt
>>>>>> (except the shitty bands whose CD were going to be traded away,
>>>>>> anyway)
>>>>>> and  everyone was being helped.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meanwhile, a simple misunderstanding about a single record (a
>>>>>> Rasputina
>>>>>> promo CD), which I thought was up for grabs, totally owned up to
>>>>>> taking
>>>>>> (even though no one knew who had taken it - you've got to ask, why
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> finger myself for no reason, if it wasn't an honest mistake?) and
>>>>>> returned, was brought up as the *only* *one* *clear* evidence of
>>>>>> supposed
>>>>>> 'theft', which simply never happened. No theft ever occurred -
>>>>>> merely
>>>>>> transfer of unwanted albums in equal measure for desired albums. All
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> which the music director was OK with. No theft was ever proven. No
>>>>>> examples were given. It was just merely *accused*, without any proof
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> citations, and would never have stood up in any court other than a
>>>>>> kangaroo one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) I had tried to get the station to run concert announcement carts
>>>>>> (not
>>>>>> just for me but for concerts all around town) which would be the
>>>>>> impetus
>>>>>> for being able to give away many concert tickets to shows. In other
>>>>>> words,
>>>>>> I was trying to serve as the function of promotions director, a
>>>>>> position
>>>>>> which the station had not had for many years due to its total lack
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> caring about connecting with the outside community. I was trying to
>>>>>> give
>>>>>> the station some real promotional weight and significance in the
>>>>>> music
>>>>>> scene. At the time of being banned, I had recently been rebuffed
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> using the production facilities at WRCT by one of the very two
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> started this plan. That is no coincidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5) I had been accused of 'threatening' people. However the only
>>>>>> instance
>>>>>> that could be brought up
>>>>>> is that one of the two people who started the plot said that one
>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> years before, i said something about wanting to 'snap their neck'. I
>>>>>> didn't deny doing it (it was so long ago that how could I possibly
>>>>>> remember a tossed off comment like that, and as far as I know I
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> been quoting the Prong lyrics 'snap your fingers, snap your neck')
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> asked the kangaroo assemblage if they could think of any other
>>>>>> instances
>>>>>> of supposed 'threats' and no one had anything to add except one
>>>>>> instance
>>>>>> of a wrestling altercation many years ago. Which just so happened to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> with the friendly, on-my-side music director with whom I had the
>>>>>> understanding about the CDs. The music director no longer cared
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> fight from long ago, but apparently to the other people who had
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> with it, it was an issue for them and therefore somehow another
>>>>>> example.
>>>>>> So, a vastly trumped up charge. Practically a lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6) Finally, I had been accused of missing the beginning of my show
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> program director.
>>>>>> This was in fact the only true accusation. I had in fact been warned
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> it before, and that was
>>>>>> grounds for losing my show for the semester. Which I would have been
>>>>>> perfectly willing to accept
>>>>>> as due punishment. Losing my show for a semester, however, was
>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>> not grounds for
>>>>>> being banned from station, especially when I was serving other
>>>>>> useful
>>>>>> functions. There were certainly other people who were on the station
>>>>>> staff
>>>>>> who did things (such as engineering etc)
>>>>>> who didn't have a show that semester.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So that's pretty much it. I got accused of theft, threatening
>>>>>> people,
>>>>>> printing flyers on their printer, and having people call me at the
>>>>>> station. All of that was either trumped up to make it look like a
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> bigger deal than it was, or not even true at all. The only true
>>>>>> accusation
>>>>>> was that I had repeatedly been late to my show for most of that
>>>>>> semester.
>>>>>> And that's it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THAT is the 'story', as you like to call it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, regarding the dictum to new DJs and the cops -
>>>>>> That is a standard procedure they did for anyone they banned from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> station.
>>>>>> It applies to anyone they banned, and they banned other people as
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> doing things a lot more odious than anything i had either actually
>>>>>> done
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> was falsely accused of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't do anything to insinuate that I would come back to the
>>>>>> station
>>>>>> and doing anything untoward. I never said threats, I never typed
>>>>>> threats.
>>>>>> (In fact, the only thing I did do was circulate a petition amongst
>>>>>> WRCT
>>>>>> staff, off station grounds). Therefore, the haters were merely
>>>>>> following
>>>>>> procedure, plus hating me as they did, and their justification for
>>>>>> banning
>>>>>> me being so flimsy and unwarranted, they were simply so afraid that
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> would cause trouble. Which I did not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'New DJs', ten years later, would have no idea what I looked like,
>>>>>> nor
>>>>>> would they possibly care to follow that dictum anyway, so that part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is pretty useless at this point, and just a relic of that particular
>>>>>> incident and nothing more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you recall correctly, I was a DJ on WRCT for 12 years before the
>>>>>> ban,
>>>>>> from 1986 on. Obviously I could have been banned any other time. I
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> been doing promotions for the station in the past, and I had been
>>>>>> providing the hard-to-find records for many years previous. But I
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> banned until 1998. So it didn't have to do with what I did over that
>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> so much as how this particular group of five people (and mostly the
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> who hatched the plot) perceived me as a hated threat
>>>>>> at that exact particular time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conjecture: Had I not done a show that summer (1998) on the station,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> quit my summer show saying I couldn't handle it, and returned, say,
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> years later, the people who hatched the plot would no longer have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the positions they were, and I would probably still be happily
>>>>>> involved
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> WRCT in some respect, with people at the station who didn't hate me
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> my back. I present the following evidence: the year after I was
>>>>>> banned,
>>>>>> one of the two plotters became General Manager (hence, a power
>>>>>> grab).
>>>>>> Then
>>>>>> the year after that, this person (and the other original plotter)
>>>>>> left
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> station and never was heard from since.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In retrospect, I do wish I had walked away at that particular time,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> there was no way of knowing
>>>>>> that, because the banning dictum came upon me suddenly, without
>>>>>> warning
>>>>>> and without recourse.
>>>>>> So, that can only be hindsight.  I was there in the wrong place at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> wrong time, mixing it up
>>>>>> with the wrong people.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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