quittin' smoking

[Jeremy David]

On 3/14/06, Christopher tm <xopher.tm at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/14/06, Jeremy David <epistemology at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 3/14/06, Christopher tm <xopher.tm at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The Invisible Hand of unfettered capitalism seems unable
> > > > to solve this problem.
> > >
> > > That's when the Highly Visible Oppressive Hand of Fascism steps in. If
> > > non-smokers stopped patronizing smoking establishments rather than
> > > legislating them out of existence, the results might be more
> > > acceptable to everyone.
> >
> > What's more fascist? The government ignoring a health problem because
> > a powerful industry (in this case, the tobacco industry) lobbies the
> > government to ignore it? Or the government doing its job and enforcing
> > rules to keep?
>
> The anti-tobacco industry is also free to lobby and bribe. Which they
> are doing. They are also winning. But it's just no good unless they
> get to feel like victims at the same time - "Ooh, the air's stinky!
> And it's YOUR FAULT, SMOKER!" I reiterate, why are there no mandatory
> shower laws? B.O. is just as offensive and just as
> dangerous/safe/whatever as second-hand tobacco smoke.

Second hand smoke has direct heath effects that are obvious to anyone.
Coughing and nausea are not healthy, they're unhealthy.

> > > Proprietors are currently and have always been free to open a bar that
> > > is non-smoking. Why do so few of them choose to do so without
> > > governmental coercement?
> >
> > Maybe for the same reasons why so few restaurants were clean and safe
> > prior to the department of public health enforcing food safety laws?
> > Maybe for the same reason why so many drugs and other foods were
> > unsafe before the FDA?
>
> Wrong.
>
> Restaurants and drug companies made money before and after regulatory
> laws. You're going into McDonald's now and telling them that they may
> only serve fries and McNuggets and that their burger-loving patrons
> must learn to enjoy McNuggets or stay home.
>
> Also, the "safety" issue is dead. Second-hand smoke has never killed
> anyone. You may not like the smell, but it won't kill you. Tainted
> food will.

I have never gone to McDonald's and said any such thing. As a matter
of fact, I enjoyed a delicious Double Quarter Pounder with Cheeze just
the other week. I see no reason for any additional laws pertaining to
food service at this time.

Also, please stop trying to imply that second hand smoke is harmless.
Second hand smoke, otherwise called involuntary smoking, according to
the American Cancer Society, does the following:

An estimated 35,000 to 40,000 deaths from heart disease in people who
are not current smokers.

About 3,000 lung cancer deaths in nonsmoking adults.

Other respiratory problems in nonsmokers, including coughing, phlegm,
chest discomfort, and reduced lung function.

150,000 to 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections (such as
pneumonia and bronchitis) in children younger than 18 months of age,
which result in 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations
Increases in the number and severity of asthma attacks in about
200,000 to 1 million asthmatic children.

Involuntary smoking causes disease, including lung cancer, in healthy
nonsmokers.

When compared with the children of nonsmoking parents, children of
parents who smoke have more frequent respiratory infections, more
respiratory symptoms, and slower development of lung function as the
lung matures.

Separating smokers and nonsmokers within the same air space may
reduce, but does not eliminate, the exposure of nonsmokers to
secondhand smoke.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Environmental_Tobacco_Smoke-Clean_Indoor_Air.asp

> > If every business can stay in business by maintaining the status quo,
> > even if the status quo is dangerous, they will not change, because the
> > risk is too great to justify it. Not everything that the government
> > does is bad. Anarcho-capitalism hasn't worked yet. Balanced
> > governments however seem to do a lot of good all over the world.
>
> I am not anti-gov't by any means. I am however very anti legislated
> morality. That is all that the Non-Smokers Temperance movement is.

I am not part of a Non-Smoker Temperance Movement. I myself smoked
several cigarettes just the other week. I may do so again this
weekend, fully understanding that the fumes are toxic. I just think
that we should live in a fair society where people who don't feel like
it aren't forced to breathe toxic fumes. Is that so crazy?