my response

[manny@telerama.com]

After all of Jeremy's vitriol and opinions being bandied about, it comes down to
the fact that I have basically nothing for which to apologize. Here's why:

These 3 shows were extremely poorly attended. I lost money on all of them.
And yes, if you got there before I did, it was yes because you are extremely
punctual and because I take the bus. Certainly there was almost never a time
where I didn't show up with enough time to set up and open doors.

The hoped-for draw by TSN (and also by other openers, such as Bottomfeeder or
Jordan Decay) did not materialize. To my knowledge I remember no 'written' (or
verbal) agreement re a guarantee for any of those three shows re TSN. (However
I did have a written agreement with SMP and The Brides, and thus took it on the
chin). However if Alex remembers that he asked for $50, but that we agreed on
$30, and that I paid $30, then what's the issue? As for the third show (The
Brides), TSN was again paid a minimal but fair amount, probably it was $50, on
a show which, once again, did not have enough draw on the part of either TSN or
the Brides to pay for itself. I obviously overestimated people's enthusiasm for
the deathrock revival. But now, I could do a Brides show again here at Garfield
Artworks with the same number of people who attended that show, and not even
need the draw of an opener, and I would break even!


It's unfortunate that Jeremy feels the need to complain now, but it is far too
late. He should have complained then and there. I might have had a bit more
sympathy and even went to the ATM to keep the peace. Instead he is talking shit
out of turn a couple years later from his grudge cubbyhole, much like the
Bottomfeeder guy tried to do last year to me on myspace (I blocked that off at
the pass). And still lying outright about some aspects of the situations (no
venue I've used did NOT have a bathroom, but then perhaps he's now backed away
from that claim).

In contrast, out of the several times that Alex Reed played solo for me, he got
paid at most of them.
In fact, he got $100 one time playing as the opener for Freezepop if I'm not
mistaken.
So I would like to commend Alex for sticking with me when Jeremy didn't. When
people show up to a show, openers get paid nicely. Even if they DON'T have much
of a draw! That is to say - when there is a bunch of money to go around, I am
nice about it, When there isn't a bunch of money to go around, don't expect any
for drawing nobody as an opener. Every contract I've ever signed with a touring
act, I have fulfilled, and that is the truth. But if you are a local band
(whether you have 6 CDs or not) and you don't  have a draw, that is another
story. I haven't signed a contract with you. But then, neither am I exploiting
you like promoters here do who make bands sell tickets. I just saym bring some
people, and you'll be rewarded for it if you do. I would suggest that if you
can't bring an audience out in your hometown, then don't play in your hometown,
and focus on elsewhere instead.
Or if you do decide to play your hometown, adopt realistic expectations.

That being said. the point Alex is making - that most people on this list and
within this scene basically do not go to shows, especially smaller shows that
are not promoted as a 'event' with a 'title', is still true as much as it was
in 1997. The difference is that in 1997 I had to rent out rooms and PAs to do
these kinds of shows, and now I don't have to.

the part about 'if you do not go to shows, they will stop' is not accurate,
if *you* don't go to shows, all we have to do is lower our expectations to
discount your possible attendance. gothic-industrial shows are still happening,
regularly. they are happening at garfield artworks, and they do not necessarily
depend on you to show up. because there is a different group of people who go
to these shows who perhaps value a live music experience in ways that you do
not. i've seen them, they exist, and godz bless 'em. maybe they are not on this
list.

which is fine. if all we can expect are 30-40 people to come to a show, then
fine, we host the shows we can afford within those lowered expectations. a band
can come to Pittsburgh and easily get paid $250 at a show, plus get dinners and
drinks, if 35 people pay $10 a head at garfield artworks, where I can declare
much lower costs than at some place where I have to schlep in a PA or placate
an overweening soundman. we obviously can't host Meat Beat Manifesto. But we
can host a bunch of other live bands that you, in fact, have heard of, but
don't ask for a shitload of money, like Combichrist or Attrition or Hungry Lucy
or Freezepop etc. So we will do that instead of worrying about Covenant or VNV
Nation. at this point, in any case, Pittsburgh is not even a 'secondary'
market, it's a 'tertiary' one, so don't expect tours to come here
that don't have enough of a built-in audience, unless you can get some
institution (such as the Warhol Museum or CMU's AB) to pay for them.

whether you come, or whether you sit at home and continue to assuage yourself
with excuses not to come, *is* up to you. but rest assured, shows will happen
whether you personally go to them, or not. i am participating in the scene, in
fact, more actively than i ever have before. i never had the ability to do as
many as 20 shows a month, but now I do, without even blinking. And not only
that, there are several other small-scale all-ages venues doing their thing as
well. As far as I'm concerned, that is progress over what things were like even
10 years ago.
now you make the decision whether you are going to do the same.

-MT

> Everyone,
>
> Apologies for having seemed to equivocate.  I just don't think this is an
> argument worth having, personally.  However, since you asked, here is what I
> recall, though the details are sketchy.
>
> I believe that TSN has played three shows for Manny (5/9/03 @ Rex w/ SMP,
11/
> 5/03 @ Rex w/ Jordan Decay -- Penis Flytrap cancelled, and 8/1/04 @ Shadow
> Lounge with The Brides).  Again, details on all this are hazy, but I believe
> that we
> had a loose verbal agreement about payment for the SMP show, or at least I
> had
> perceived it as such.  When we were not paid for it, it was a frustration,
> though
> probably less for me than for my bandmates, because I didn't feel it was
> worthwhile to make a stink over it.  Instead, I merely made sure that when
> you
> we agreed to play for you the next time, we had a written agreement.  For
> that
> second show, I asked for $50, and you conceded $30.  As for the final
> concert, I
> have zero recollection of the payment scenario, and my email records have a
> multimonth gap in them, so I really can't say much about it.  If we were
> paid, it
> was certainly $50 or less.
>
> I stress again that I personally have no ill will for Manny, but I do
> understand
> that for TSN (which despite not being the most famous act on Earth still has
> a
> big enough fanbase to warrant a half dozen releases) to have played three
> concerts, involving at least 12 hours of driving on Aaron's part (he lives 3
> hours
> away, and was present for the 1st and 3rd shows), all for less than $100 is
> an
> anomaly.  Given the attendance at these shows, it is not an anomaly I imagine
> us
> repeating in the future.  This is not entirely Manny's fault of course; the
> scene in
> Pittsburgh is traditionally very lazy about coming out to shows, and as it
> has
> been said many times before, if you don't come, they'll stop happening.
>
> Jeremy is correct in that all three of these shows began and ended very late,
> and
> that in every case we showed up to the venue before the promoter did.  Maybe
> that's just because we're anal retentive about punctuality; I always prefer
> to give
> the benefit of the doubt.
>
> Though I am not upset at present about any of this (as evidenced by my
> continued willingness to play solo shows for Manny's events), and while I on
> principal don't hold grudges, I *do* understand Jeremy's frustration with the
> situation, and I *do* understand how one might perceive it as a shafting.  I
> take
> partial blame for this, as I (in at least one case) agreed on the band's
> behalf to
> play for a low fee.  I will say, however, that when I was promoting shows,
> the
> bands' payments were always more important to me than my own -- even local
> acts for money-losing shows.  I did it that way because A.) it's the ethical
> and
> professional thing to do, B.) I have toured and know it is harder on bands
> than
> on promoters, and C.) it makes bands actively want to work with you again.
> When I plan a tour, I would rather skip a city entirely than work with a
> promoter
> who left a bad taste in my mouth the last time we collaborated for a show.  A
> friendly, punctual, sociable, promise-keeping, and passionately invested
> promoter can make up for any number of other technical or financial
> misfortunes.
>
> I hope that clears things up a bit.  I apologize to everyone for dragging
> details
> as I have out into public; I normally wouldn't do such a thing, but I wanted
> to
> demonstrate that my position in this (which I still very much regret is a
> public
> affair at all) need neither be one lockstep loyalty nor waffling
> equivocation.
>
> Best wishes,
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> pgh-goth-list mailing list
> pgh-goth-list at listless.org
> http://www.listless.org/mailman/listinfo/pgh-goth-list
>